Alexander Zaharchenko: If you know what you are dying for, then you are ready to give your life away

Alexander Zakharchenko sworn in as head of the Donetsk People's Republic on November 4, 2014

On November 2, the territory which is under the control of the Donetsk militia is going to hold the elections to the Parliament and the elections of the Head of the Republic. With high probability the first elected leader of the DPR will be Alexander Zaharchenko, combat commander, the current PM of the DPR. Before the war, Zaharchenko was a mining electrician, worked in a mine. His nomination was supported by other militia leaders such as Andrey Purgin and Denis Pushilin. The RR correspondent met Zaharchenko in Donetsk: she not only talked to him about the difference between a commander and an officer, combat brotherhood and high intrigues, but also came under a mortar attack.

In a café

Alexander: If you visit my supreme council and realize that you cannot trust anyone. [He sighs.] It's here, on the corner. The worst thing is that for some people the war is a way of making money, the redistribution of the spheres of influence... My dream ... You asked me what is my dream. [He flicks cigarette ashes.] Yes, I have a dream. Maybe it's stupid. Perhaps you will be laughing. Many people laugh. If I were one of them I'd also laugh at such a dream. But ... I also understand the structure and the economy of Donbass, so I want to improve the level of living of my fellow countrymen so that it was even higher than in Poland. Our land is unique, rich in minerals...

Marina: Donbass showed me miserable villages and miners from makeshift coalmines (kopankas) who...

Alexander: No. [He is lighting a cigarette, interrupting.] Let's not compare mines and kopankas. There are mines and there are kopankas. So, descending into a kopanka is degrading for a miner. My father thirty years worked in a mine. I have a year and a half of the underground service. But as a professional miner, my Dad would never go down in a kopanka. Going down there was beneath his dignity.

Marina: Why?

Alexander: A mine is a man's job. Kopanka is just a way of extraction of coal from the earth.

Marina: Do you remember your first descending into a mine?

Alexander: Yes, I remember. And will never forget. Despite my family are miners and they always talked about mines, when I was descending, I knew what awaits me there, but it was ... crazy.

Marina: Scary?

Alexander: No. It was interesting. I was not scared. I was scared only twice: it can be scary at the time of [gas] emissions or when the trolley has slipped from the rails and rushes towards you, while you are standing in its way. But all of this is not as bad as what I see here every day.

Marina: What do you see?

Alexander: Abkhazian [a nickname] has just come, the commander of the International Brigade. In yesterday's battle he had the three-hundreds [injured soldiers]. One of them lost his hand. He is disabled now. I saw him today [looks at the wrist, compresses his fingers]. I also had my hand nearly torn off. Maybe it's not so bad. Terrible is when the whole arm is torn off. Or when you are struck in the head by shrapnel.

Marina: Haven't you got used to losses?

Alexander: We can get used to the number of those killed. For you, six killed people who were found in the grave was a tragedy. And here we do not understand why you consider those six a tragedy (there was a broad discussion in the Russian press and on the diplomatic level burials found in the territory of the DPR. - Russian Reporter), when dozens die here every day. Why those six were so special for the journalists? Why?

Marina: Why do you think?

Alexander: Some of the answers that come to my mind... I was even afraid to articulate them. When people are killed every day, it becomes statistics. And when that pregnant woman was found in a grave ... and it coincided with the specific political moments ... And before that occurrence, those moments simply didn't overlap. Or some cosmic rays did not converge at the right point and so those deaths were not interesting ... But we here have quite a different attitude to death. Do you know who understands us? The miners, for example, from Vorkuta. Kuzbass will understand us. Every day I was going down into the mine, and my brother was going up. When I was going up, my brother was going down. My mother and wife were waiting. We all understand that we can never see the descended one again.

Marina: Can a person constantly worry all through those long hours of his shift?

Alexander: No. But death, the blunted awareness of it, is always with us. The thought of death sits in each miner and his family.

Marina: This thought, when death finally comes, does it help you to cope with the pain?

Alexander: No. It hurts anyway. But the thought of death is always there and never goes away.

Marina: If it hurts anyway, what's the point of this thought?

Alexander: It gives us strength. We become stronger when we prepare ourselves for the time when one of us does not come back. Why the battlefields didn't break us, as it happened with Kharkov and Odessa? For Odessa the incident was a shock, and they froze. But we were ready to die, and for us the events became a motivation for uprising. You see, death... it is important how you treat it. What are you dying for? If you know what for, then you're ready to give your life away.

Marina: What for?

Alexander: I can explain. [He says quietly and pours tea from the kettle]. But I'll better show you. After we talk, I suggest going to the place where I'll show you what I'm ready to die for.

Marina: Are you ready to die?

Alexander: I've been injured twice in this war.

Marina: I didn't mean that you were hiding from danger. I mean: are you ready to die now? Tomorrow will come; the sun will rise above the city like now and illuminate this window. The waiters will quietly shuffle on these carpets with trays. But you will not be sitting at this table anymore. You will be gone. So may I ask again: are you really ready to die?

Alexander: I'll be honest [[He says quietly. Only idiots are not afraid of death. I'm not an idiot. I'm afraid of death. But if something needs to be done that can lead us to our goal, I will do it. Even if the price is my life. But I will do it only in the case when I am sure that this fight or this war, which has taken away my life, brings us closer to our goal. The value of that for which we are fighting is much higher than the cost of our lives.

Marina: Have you ever cried when you were a child?

Alexander: The car run down my dog. I was really crying. It was my dog. I was ready to kill the driver. I revenged him: pierced all his wheels.

Marina: How old were you?

Alexander: Eight. The image of my helpless dog dying in my hands was.. so horrible.

Marina: Did you feel horrified in this war?

Alexander: I will be honest, I didn't cry. But I was horrified when the little girl was dying before my eyes. Little. I was so scared. But I'm not an eight year-old boy anymore. So I didn't cry. But my soul became somewhat rusty after that. I realized that everything changed and we will never be the same again. That our souls have changed. And now I have some desire ... I am struggling it. The desire to make them feel what we felt.

Marina: Them who?

Alexander: I would go to Warsaw. I have a bone to pick now with the Poles. I would also look through a telescope at the city of Lviv... Although I have a whole battalion of Lviv fighters with us: the Berkut of Lviv. But they have a strong desire to visit their city too.

Marina: Were you a Pioneer?

Alexander: Yes, but I was late for the Komsomol.

Marina: Do you remember putting on your Pioneer tie?

Alexander: Yes, me and another student from my class became Pioneers six months before others. I won the History Olympics [He sighs. The Soviet Union, although was full wrong things, was a great country. And we were proud of it; we could confidently look in other people's eyes. We did not feel humiliated and low-spirited. And then they changed our psychology and made us, the Slavs, slaves.

Marina: Have you ever felt as a slave?

Alexander: Twice in my life. The first was when I could not punish the person who knocked down another person in front of my eyes. I applied to all departments, but it did not work: he was acquitted. And I realized that I am a slave for this system.

Marina: Do you think that it cannot happen in Russia too?

Alexander: It can. I will say even more. The misconception of Russia is that many of you - the Russians - see us as people who took up arms because of poverty and hunger. In reality, Donbass is one of the richest regions of Ukraine. And may God help every region of Russia to live as we lived here in Ukrainian Donbass. We lived even richer and friendlier than Russians.

Marina: Why do you want to join Russia then? In Russia, everything is our way, not yours. Our system can break you quickly. Such people like you especially.

Alexander: Why, do you think that the system broke me?

Marina: Not yet.

Alexander: The system breaks down the people who cannot bend. If I go into power, will I have to bend? And I will not bend. I will refuse power then.

Marina: Do you think you will survive in such case?

Alexander: There were two assassination attempts already, without taking into account those battles in which I participated. I am hot-tempered, and my unit participated in all major battles of the war. And I participated with my unit almost in all those battles. That is, I never abandoned my fellows. I went with them. Participated in all of the fistfights, all tank attacks, etc... In liberating Shakhtersk. Shakhtersk is like Stalingrad for us [Shakhtersk means the City of Miners in Russian]. Chances of losing my life I had aplenty.

Marina: When did you feel like a slave for the second time?

Alexander: When watching Maidan mess on TV: I realized that we are all slaves for them. They treat us like slaves. I didn't want to be a slave, so I took a shovel and dug a personal machine gun out my flowerbeds.

Marina: Why would a peaceful man have a machine gun?

Alexander: Not only a machine gun: I also had two ordinary guns, a box of grenades and a sniper rifle.

Marina: But you didn't use them before?

Alexander: I didn't, but it doesn't mean I didn't have them. In this sense I am a true Ukrainian as they say: I had them just to be safe.

Marina: Are you a Russian or Ukrainian?

Alexander: My mother is Russian and my father is Ukrainian. It's funny, but my Russian mother lived all her life in Ukraine, while my Ukrainian father lived in Russia. So who am I? Who?

Marina: Who do you think?

Alexander: There is this idea of the Russian world which is becoming popular now. Everyone understands it differently. I know perfectly well where Russia originates from. I understand that the Holy Russia originates in Kiev. The Russian world is the union of all Slavs. It's not the way that we live now: Russia, Belarus and Ukraine all live separately. We should live together [He sighs]. But we know that together doesn't always mean equal, so we have to choose the lesser evil. And choosing the lesser evil, I prefer killing fascists and Nazis. Radicals. I don't know how else I can call them.

Marina: Killing?

Alexander: Well... I am a military officer. We have different "truths" with these people. We have our and they have theirs. And if I don't shoot, they will shoot me first. Try to understand... Some are separated territorially. Some - politically. And some are separated with blood - like us.

Marina: What did you feel when you were wearing a Pioneer tie?

Alexander: I was proud. The same I felt during the Victory Parade. A Parade feels very different when you know that one of your leaders can, with a clear conscience, take off his shoe and bang it on the podium of the UN with shouting "I'm going to show you.." But you know, when the question arose: where shall we go - as a man of sense, according to the reference of the SBU - I analyzed the situation pretty well, and I was probably the only one who suggested: "You know, guys, we should neither join the Customs Union nor Europe." We should go our own way. It is a shame to be a slave in Europe, it's humiliating. As for joining Russia... We must make sure that our interests are treated equally with those of Russia.

Marina: If Vladimir Putin invites you for a meeting, what will you be wearing?

Alexander: And what are people usually wearing when meeting him?

Marina: What are you going to wear?

Alexander: A suit.

Marina: Are you wearing suits?

Alexander: I used to wear suits at work.

Marina: Will you buy a new suit to meet him?

Alexander: I have a suit. A good one. I wasn't poor.

Marina: Europe will perceive a person who dug his machine gun out of his flowerbeds as a barbarian.

Alexander: They perceive us as barbarians not because we are barbarians. They perceive the image which was imposed on them, and this image is barbaric. For them we are all thieves, corrupt bear riders.

Marina: Can you think of death as of crucifixion?

Alexander: Let me ask you instead. Do you know how miners die? There are two kinds of a miner's death. The first: he gets burned alive. The second: he gets slowly smashed with rock. He cannot breathe. He is dying under pressure for days. And it's impossible to dig a passage for him. It takes too long to dig, not enough time for this. Usually they seal the lava and leave the miners there. What do you think is worse: such death or a crucifixion?

Marina: Crucifixion.

Alexander: Why?

Marina: Rocks are relentless, but they have the limit of pressure. Human cruelty has no limits.

Alexander: Death is not important. It is important how people will estimate your work when you're gone.

Marina: What estimation do you expect?

Alexander: Give me your hand. [Looks at the palm]. You will live a long life, I guarantee.

Marina: And you?

Alexander: I used to live in a Gipsy neighborhood and I can read palms. But I never read mine. Do you think you can understand me just by talking to me?

Marina: We talked before.

Alexander: I remember.

Marina: In July, I approached you at the Parliament House. I thought you were Strelkov's bodyguard. Your arm was plastered. I asked you if it hurt.

Alexander: I said "no." We were meeting with Borodai: Strelkov and me. And we were quarrelling very seriously about abandoning Slavyansk. We had a huge scandal. Before leaving, I said "You smell different for us, Igor."

Marina: Because he is from Moscow?

Alexander: No. Because for me.. [He starts flaring his nostrils]. It is crazy when someone suggests to ruin 9-storey houses in the outskirts of Donetsk.

Marina: He ruined them?

Alexander: No. We didn't allow him.

Marina: Is it because he perceives war as a game?

Alexander: Because he thinks that it is more convenient to set up defense on the ruins. And because it is not his homeland. You are trying to guess what I think about it? It's personal.

Marina: Was he accepted?

Alexander: He fought with us. But his views and ideas were not supported by 90 percent of his people.

Marina: He was too cruel?

Alexander: Too different. He is an officer. The war is a dogma for him. But we have a different war here. We were trying to explain to him that our war was different, that it was not enclosed in tactical moves only, the direction of impact and brutal defense. It's not enough. If you only follow the dogmas, at least twenty thousand people must have defended Slavyansk. Then the city would be guaranteed from being taken by the enemy. And since he had only about six thousand people, the defense should have been organized differently. He's a hero in his own way. He raised the banner and so on. We respect him for this. But those issues that he was trying to solve at the cost of the lives of our fellow countrymen ... well ... we would have done it differently.

Marina: With mercy?

Alexander: No. The cruelty was mutual. I'm not saying that he was more cruel than us. But we would fight for certain areas and would never abandon them because those areas were supplying the people behind us with their vital necessities. He didn't know it, but we did. By defending Kramatorsk, we knew that we were defending the major energy hub of Donetsk region. By defending Kurahovo, we were defending the only electric station which supplies Donetsk. By defending Slavyanskaya dam, we were defending the only source of water for the whole region. Why didn't Bes [Igor Bezler] abandon Gorlovka? Because the Stirol plant is there. He was laying injured, but his battalion stayed. You know why? Because he is local.

Marina: What other cruelty should happen to break this calmness of yours?

Alexander: You know what I hate about myself? I have a very annoying trait of which I cannot get rid of. When I'm angry I have my nostrils flared. I hate this feature. It exposes my emotions, the abyss ... In the beginning, when I sent men into battle, and they were at my command, and they died, fulfilling the task or not, I must be honest ... I was having some very strong feeling inside... And then one day I just could no longer send my people to die without me. Here comes the division - and I go with them. I perform combat missions with them. When someone was shooting me, I was shooting in response. We were fist-fighting. We were sitting in the trenches. I was cut and I cut in response... And then my fellows told me after dragging me out wounded: "Look, we understand. We know why you go into battles with us, we are not idiots. And we appreciate it. But if you die, what will happen to us? We'll go where you say. But please stay alive. And make sure that our families get the future of which we dreamed and for which we are dying. Then the future of which we dreamed sitting in the trenches and shouting songs like crazy because we ran out of ammo and a fist-fighting was waiting for us." Ninety-five percent of the units have been injured. Seven out of a hundred were not hurt, but three of them had contusions. [He speaks quietly]. I am my grandfather's grandson. And I am the great-grandson of my great-grandfather. I keep all their awards at home. I often go over and look at them, and I understand that if my ancestors were able, then I am also able. And if I meet them one day, I will not be ashamed that I had disgraced their names. We will stand with them together in order of seniority. But I will not stand as a child among them, I will stand as a man. They will estimate my life path. Perhaps I made many mistakes. But only he makes no mistakes who makes nothing.

Marina: How can you be so kind and so cruel at the same time?

Alexander: You know better.

Marina: Are you cruel?

Alexander: I... can be cruel.

Marina: With whom?

Alexander: With an enemy.

Marina: Is an enemy also human?

Alexander: Human. That's why I let go of hundreds of enemies: because they are 18-21 year-old kids. But I do not release officers from Donbass, Aidar and Azov battalions. I do not release snipers and fire adjusters.

Marina: Why? You kill them?

Alexander: No, we exchange them. We haven't shot a single captive. Not a single one.

Marina: Whose idea was it to hold a parade of captives?

Alexander: Mine.

Marina: It was very cruel and humiliating.

Alexander: That's why I'm cruel and kind at the same time probably.

Marina: Did you feel pity?

Alexander: Pity? For whom, Marina?

Marina: Their human dignity.

Alexander: OK, let me tell you one big secret: we could kick out almost seven hundred people. Seven hundred. That was the original idea. But we kicked only sixty eight: officers, mercenaries, snipers and spotters - they are not people for me.

Marina: How did you come up with this idea?

Alexander: I was watching TV. Poroshenko said he was planning a victory march.

Marina: And your nostrils flared?

Alexander: Yes. The idea came immediately.

Marina: Do you regret this parade?

Alexander: Not at all. The whole world was yelling about it and about me, and I was just standing and watching it.

Marina: What did you feel?

Alexander: Sorry.

Marina: But it was you who could stop it.

Alexander: I felt sorry not about them, but about those who sent them here. A man was standing next to me who lost two sons. And a mother whose son was strangled.

Marina: Have you learnt something new about humans from this war?

Alexander: I have seen so much of heroism. And betrayal. And cowardice. I remember the eyes of 18 year-old boy who rushed under a tank with grenades attached to him.

Marina: Why didn't you stop him?

Alexander: I had no time. I was on the opposite side of the road. I only had time to run up and catch his last glance. This kid blew up the tank, because the tank was heading at the wounded. They were laying there, about thirty people. The tank was heading to simply smash them, there was no shooting even. The kid felt pity for them. His own foot was injured, but he had grenades. And he did not hesitate. We killed the tank crew later. [He looks at his mobile phone]. Fifty-eight calls ... When Shakhtersk was betrayed, we came there. One hundred seventy eight of us, and a group of three thousand against us. They had two hundred pieces of equipment, and we had six. But in two days we almost liberated the city. According to all the laws of military tactics, there should have been at least three times more of us, the attackers. But there were ten times less instead. This is a different war. And cruelty is different here. And cowardice is different. This war is worse than the civil war of 1917. Say why? Because we are fighting our own people.

Marina: Do you consider your enemies your own people?

Alexander: Why not? Many our neighbors are fighting on the other side. They have a different point of view. Many of them were born here. And they also draw fire upon themselves - like we did at Saur Mogila.

Marina: Who are you for this city?

Alexander: Well... I'd rather say what this city is for me. I want to live and die here. I spoke with a priest recently at baptizing ceremony for one our deceased militia's daughter. He took me aside and asked just one question: when do we destroy the people sitting in the airport? Do you understand that it was a priest who asked it: when do we destroy them?.. He was not asking as a priest at the time, but as a resident of Donetsk. And the residents of Donetsk are completely different people.

Marina: Is there God above?

Alexander: Yes.

Marina: So, God witnessed the captives' parade?

Alexander: Yes. Parade, me and my sins.

Marina: Sins?

Alexander: Yes. But let me tell you: this parade changed the world's perception of this war. It changed the attitude of those who send their sons here. Many people started hating me. Wanted to tear me apart for this.. I was the most unhappy person at that parade. I even drank a lot that day. But I noticed how the political attitude changed - even in Russia. Since then it became clear that it was a war and not an "anti-terrorist campaign."

Marina: You are sighing all the time. What's with your heart?

Alexander: It's OK, it just hurts. Because when I was looking at my fellows I wanted to defend them. I wanted to make sure that no one will ever make them participate in such a "parade..." What amazes me is that you don't consider this war horrible, do you? For you horrible is when there are hundreds of thousands of victims, concentration camps. But the world has changed. And the wars changed.

Marina: Tell me about your grandfather.

Alexander: He was always wearing a military uniform. They say I look like him. My great grand-father Stepan Zakharchenko joined the war at 4.30 am in Brest as a commander of howitzer battery and finished it in Prague... What I want is to stop this war asap. I want peace.

Marina: Can you reach this goal?

Alexander: If they betray me, then no. Betrayal is the most horrible thing, there is nothing worse. I had a choice in Minsk: to betray or not. I didn't betray.

Marina: But many militias are dissatisfied that their homes remain on the territories controlled by Ukraine.

Alexander: But... as an adequate commander I understand that the army is worn out. Do you think we have no losses? We have. There is replenishment, but it takes at least two months to teach the newcomers.

Marina: Is Russian army not helping you?

Alexander: This is the second largest Russian misconception. There are many liberal movements in Russia. When you see this you start understanding that our victory may simply... Let's change the subject. You see, since September 5 when I signed the agreement and up to November 2, we liberated 38 settlements.

Marina: So you were violating the ceasefire?

Alexander: No! We didn't! We only shot in response! Always. We were never the first to attack.

Marina: And who you didn't betray in Minsk?

Alexander: They expected that we would sign the version according to which we must have given away what we already have. I refused. It would be betrayal for those people who live in those areas. And to those who were fighting for those areas. I will tell you more: today I wrote my resignation letter. You are talking with a man now who can be no longer a PM in a couple of hours. And you are the only reporter who knows it. I can't betray my people. I didn't sleep last night. We discussed what we shall do now. And we decided that we mustn't give in. If I don't leave now, I will have to betray, because they will make me sign this version.

Marina: Don't sign it.

Alexander: They will make me sign it.

Marina: Who?

Alexander: Come, I'll show you something. You will live a long life, I guarantee.

They were caught by a mortar attack, escaped and returned to the café.

Marina: Are you ready for betrayal?

Alexander: Of course.

Marina: By those who you trust?

Alexander: This would be the most painful betrayal. But I must face it without blinking, there is no other way to overcome it. Liberty can be of various price. We pay for freedom with blood. Others buy it with money ... Is Putin a barbarian in the eyes of the whole civilized world, what do you think? He is. But since I am proud of this man, then why should I care? It was thanks to him that something awakened in the souls of my generation which was previously dormant. He gave us a chance to change things. If we fail, we will die - not physically, but mentally. Moral death is the worst. The death of our spirit.

Marina: What if Putin betrays you?

Alexander: This is a provocative question. But Putin will never betray us. I know it. Call it my intuition, if you wish.

Marina: What did you feel when you were signing Minsk agreements?

Alexander: Uncomfortable. I was watching and learning. I talked them to death with my questions. They told me that I was stupid, quirky and ... mean. I told them that if the fate of my land was to be solved in a duel, I would not hesitate to cut their entire delegation and would be sitting somewhere in Warsaw already. They are so miserable. It would be a pleasure... People who die for their land reach heaven first.

Later in a shop

People: When will it all stop? When will you liberate us? When are you going to capture that damn airport?

Alexander: If I could, I'd bite to death.

People: What about pensions?

Alexander: Pension payments will be resumed in January.

People: And what until then? This guy, for example, is the victim of Chernobyl impact. He has no money.

Alexander: Until then we will pay social pensions. One thousand eight hundred hryvnas.

A woman: Thank you, Sasha. This is our Zakharchenko.

Another woman crying: My brother died. He was shot in the schoolyard. I am all alone now. What am I supposed to do?

Alexander: I... I... don't know. [He walks away quickly]

Marina: What do you feel?

Alexander: Guilty.

Marina: Why didn't you support her? Why didn't you find words for her?

Alexander: What could I say? How could I support her? With my nice words? I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. But I can't express it with words. I must do something, so that she realized that her brother did not die in vain.

Marina: Such people like you are good for wars. But in peaceful times they usually get rid of you.

Alexander: The Moor has done his duty, let him go.

Marina: Are you ready to leave?

Alexander: If I see that the war is over, I can leave with pleasure.

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